Provinces: Layer on Layer action!

For discussion on the most 'core' concepts and ideas for the first version of the SOTE project. This is for absolutely necessary mechanics and ideas that form the backbone of the game.
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soy de river beaver
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Re: Provinces: Layer on Layer action!

Post by soy de river beaver » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:53 pm

Kukumarro, i see, i didn't know this till now, it makes sence.

as for tectonic plates deforming during the game due to the sea and stuff, i think its too much for the relativly short period a lifeform species. the height of each tile should be permanent, and as you said, the climate currents will make vallies go from fertile to arid, arid steppes or deserts, moist jungles, temperate grasslands.
unless what you are sugesting is let the world create itself by those mecchanics, before the main species even apear, that would be interesting.

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David Buunk
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Re: Provinces: Layer on Layer action!

Post by David Buunk » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:43 pm

As far as I see it, the first version would determine geology and climate by a set of heuristics. In future versions, first the climate, then the geology would be modelled from the fundamentals, and would become dynamic though the game. Although there would be very little change throughout the game-span.
Programming SotE.

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kukumarro
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Re: Provinces: Layer on Layer action!

Post by kukumarro » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:51 am

soy de river beaver wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:53 pm
unless what you are sugesting is let the world create itself by those mecchanics, before the main species even apear, that would be interesting.
That is exactly it: first have a "world creator" that sculpts the world with plaque tectonics and calculate the bulk of climate (oceanic/wind currents). These would be static in game, though climate change would be applied in latter versions.
David Buunk wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:43 pm
As far as I see it, the first version would determine geology and climate by a set of heuristics. In future versions, first the climate, then the geology would be modelled from the fundamentals, and would become dynamic though the game.
That is right.
David Buunk wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:43 pm
Although there would be very little change throughout the game-span.
Actually, climate can have considerable changes during time periods as short as centuries without the need of antropogenic inputs (like the medieval warm period or the little ice age). In the real world, climatic changes have been important forces on human societies. In game, they will be a good way to stress a civilization or trigger important events such as migrations.

And although I don't want to get ahead of myself, if we can have the possibility of magic experiments provoking some kind of disaster like a megavolcano which apart from destroying an specific civilization triggers a climate change, it would be AWESOME.

Demiansky
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Re: Provinces: Layer on Layer action!

Post by Demiansky » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:17 am

I definitely want an actual geologic system long term with actual plate techtonics not just for the creation of the world, but also for apocalyptic events which, say, accelerate those processes by something like 100,000x. This would allow the world to be changed and appear "similar" but also "different" for the player if they choose to continue to play in the same game world over and over again from one game to the next.

Of course, the extent and detail of such a system would arise later on given that we want something to show for our efforts in the mid term, but definitely something we should keep our eyes on.

I think climate changes are definitely within the appropriate timeframe of the 2nd and 3rd iteration of the game, too, given that a game is meant to last hundreds or thousands of years.

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kukumarro
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Re: Provinces: Layer on Layer action!

Post by kukumarro » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:13 pm

I was starting to look for books of tectonics and rheology, when I found something very interesting: a PhD thesis featuring a procedural terrain generator based on (simplified) plate tectonics. Some minecraft modder group called "Terasology project" is actually using this generator xD.

Thesis: http://www.theseus.fi/bitstream/handle/ ... sAllowed=y

The C++ source code is downloadable under GNU v3 license here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/platec/

Demonstration in video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi4b45tMEPE

However, I don't think we should actually use this code for two reasons:
  • We want to be able to freely modify whatever code we use.
  • While this code can be freely used for scientific purposes, using it for commercial purposes would break copyright.
So I suggest developing our own code. But this is still a very cool reference and we can use it to see how our model should look like at the end.

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David Buunk
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Re: Provinces: Layer on Layer action!

Post by David Buunk » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:36 pm

kukumarro wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:13 pm
However, I don't think we should actually use this code for two reasons:
  • We want to be able to freely modify whatever code we use.
  • While this code can be freely used for scientific purposes, using it for commercial purposes would break copyright.
So I suggest developing our own code. But this is still a very cool reference and we can use it to see how our model should look like at the end.
Actually, it is under the LGPL, and if my knowledge of the LGPL is correct that means that we could take their code, modify it to suit our needs, and then use it in a commercial, closed-source product (SOTE), provided that we would publish our changed version of the tectonics software under the LGPL.

Still, it might be a good idea to write our own code, with this as inspiration. But there is no legal reason why we cannot.
Programming SotE.

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kukumarro
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Re: Provinces: Layer on Layer action!

Post by kukumarro » Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:52 pm

Until there is a tectonic model with which to generate random worlds, I thought we could use Earth's map for testing all the other systems. I got my hands on a topographic map of the Earth with 1km resolution (1.87Gb) from this website: http://iridl.ldeo.columbia.edu/SOURCES/ ... files.html.

I also found a nice website (http://www.redblobgames.com/grids/hexagons/) on how to program and use hexagonal grids, which will be very useful. I would like to make a extrapolation of the Earth's map to a hexagonal grid with 5km or 10km edges to see how it looks like. I do not want to reinvent the wheel, so does anyone know of an already-made software we can use to read a data file and plot a map, using an hexagonal grid (I know already of some for a square grid, so there may be some for hexagonal)?

Khardinal
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Re: Provinces: Layer on Layer action!

Post by Khardinal » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:40 pm

David Buunk wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:27 pm
[*] Height
[*] Ruggedness
[*] Wind speed
[*] Wind direction
[*] Water speed
[*] Water direction
[*] Temperature
[*] Soil type
[*] Biomass
[*] Percentage managed
About water.
Water speed could mean where you can/cannot build bridge over rivers. And some technologies could allow you later to build bridges in more places, or bigger bridges if the river is 2 tiles size for instance.
So, in the all, rivers could have more than 1 tile size, and also could be more crossable at some points, usually where cities where built (meanders or ford)

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soy de river beaver
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Re: Provinces: Layer on Layer action!

Post by soy de river beaver » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:18 am

Khardinal wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:40 pm
Water speed could mean where you can/cannot build bridge over rivers. And some technologies could allow you later to build bridges in more places, or bigger bridges if the river is 2 tiles size for instance.
So, in the all, rivers could have more than 1 tile size, and also could be more crossable at some points, usually where cities where built (meanders or ford)
is that real? i dont think any bridge wasn't made due to this, maybe if the climate was too hostile the rives would be harder to deal with.

but its a new idea, to make some stuff like bridges construction sensible to the world, and make the project be put on hold

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kukumarro
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Re: Provinces: Layer on Layer action!

Post by kukumarro » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:32 pm

About the bridges and rivers... if the tiles are going to be around 5-10km wide, most rivers (except extremely big ones) will have to modeled as frontiers between tiles, rather than tiles.

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